Recent Discussions — Elder Scrolls Online

NEW PATCH: Did not have time yet to fully update guide with some new patch changes so just simple things to point out that may be interesting or important.

On nightblade, slot Relentless Focus on both bars now
On warden, use snipe more than cutting dives (you can even slot both) for fights that allow it. It is less dangerous now (only 25% slow, not 50%). Snipe was always more damage than dive.
Mechanical Acuity is good set. But dont chase the meta. It does not suit bows very much.
On sorc, try use greater storm atronach ultimate instead of bow. Bow ulti is slightly better and more burst, but atronach makes you tankier (8% more hp during it) and creates damage buffing synergy.

DISCLAIMER: No information below is in any way based on experience using bow/bow setups in veteran trials. While everything said is true for veteran trials, don't try using bow builds there unless your group is ok with it. More reasoning on this will follow.

I try to stay true to the facts, but a lot of either personal testing or experience is needed because of simple lack of information on this topic. Don't take everything at face value and instead try to perform own tests. I will happily answer any questions or challenges regarding informations provided.

Bow builds in PVE are in some way hot topic, mostly on the negative side of discussion. They will always output less single target damage than standard dw/bow stamina builds and less AoE damage than all magicka builds. People playing veteran trials and aiming to be the very best with the biggest numbers or fastest runs with least amount of deaths understandably avoid using them and look in negative way at people that do use them. This views obviously affects people at lower tier, making bow builds both unpopular and supposedly bad way to play even in content where they are more than enough.

So for folks interested in ranged stamina DPS playstyle, I present this little build/guide to get them up to speed, because it can be hard to find actual information given small interest from the great build creators on top and negative remarks from people that usually don't bother to do own research

START of the important part

(bolded the better)
Class: Nightblade, Sorcerer, Warden, DK, Templar
Race: Khajiit, Redguard, Bosmer, Imperial, Nord, Orc, Dunmer, Argonian

Food/Drink: Dubious Camoran Throne, any maxHP+maxStam food
Potions: Stamina+Brutality+Savagery, Stamina+Savagery+Health (must find other source for Major Brutality)
Mundus: Warrior, Lover (for dungeons if penetration is not reached)

Standard skill setup
Poison Injection, Acid Spray, Snipe (any morph), Endless Hail, Lightweight Trap, Razor Caltrops, Flawless Dawnbreaker, Ballista, Resolving Vigor if needed
(bolded skills are must have)

Nightblade: Relentless Focus, Leeching Strikes, Killer's Blade
Sorcerer: Bound Armaments, Hurricane, Critical Surge, Dark Deal
DK: Venomous Claw, Noxious Breath, Flames of Oblivion, Molten Weapons (any morph), Dragonknight Standard (any morph)
Templar: any Aedric Spear skill (Biting Jabs or Crescent Sweep), Power of the Light, Repentance
Warden: Wild Guardian (replace FDWB+Ballista), Cutting Dive (replace Snipe), Subterranean Assault, Bull Netch, Green Lotus, Ice Fortress, Shimmering Shield

Champion points setup
Varies a lot by race, class and what are you doing or what is currently optimal. So seek guides from alcast and other folks. There are basically only 2 big differences (or focus points) for bow. First one is in green tree, where we always go for 14% stamina regen (but some meta builds do too). Next, the biggest one, is DoT vs Direct CP distribution (master at arms vs thaumaturge). Most meta builds focus heavily on Thaumaturge, but bow builds are different. Our damage is usually split 50-50 between dot and direct and so we keep both CP stars at similar value.
Check link at the end for uesp build of warden I currently prefer (= CP distribution I like the most, does not mean it is most optimal)

Standard gear usage (bolded optimal)

Frontbar weapon: Master Bow, Maelstrom Bow, Asylum Bow, any set Bow
Frontbar weapon traits: Infused, Nirnhoned, Sharpened
Frontbar glyphs: Poison, Weapon Damage, Disease
Backbar weapon: Master Bow, Maelstrom Bow, any set Bow
Backbar weapon traits: Infused, Nirnhoned, Sharpened
Backbar glyphs: Poison, Weapon Damage, Disease, Alchemical Poisons (double damage)

Important notice: Always use Maelstrom Bow unless you don't have it. Never use two same 'special' bows at once. Never use two same glyphs at once.

Primary set: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Spriggan, Night Mother's Gaze (for group support), Strength of the Automaton (for sorcerer), Briarheart, Hunding's Rage

For secondary part there are two options.
If you have and use master or asylum bow you either equip Monster Set and 3 piece set or full 5pc set.
If you have neither you preferably always use full 5pc set with 1pc Monster Set, but can also use 4th piece of Minor Slayer set with Monster set

Secondary 5pc set: Vicious Serpent (Ophidian), any Primary set, War Machine (on warden with bear)
Secondary 3pc set: any Minor Slayer set (Vicious Serpent, War Machine, Roar of Alkosh), Agility
Monster set: Stormfist, Velidreth, Spawn of Mephala, Valkyn Skoria (scales poorly with stamina/physical stats)
1pc Monsert set: Kra'gh, Velidreth or Kena, Stormfirst or Bloodspawn (for sustain)

END of brief information and build advice; SKIP to end for links or parses

Regarding stamina sustain

Bow builds come with rather unique problem of sustaining in current heavy attack meta. Simplified, it could be said that for best DPS always avoid heavy attacks as much as possible. Every heavy attacks on bow comes with no extra perks than slightly more damage and resources gained than on other weapons for the price of very long animation that snares character, creates situation where Hawk Eye passive stack can be lost, obviously lowers your DPS because you aren't casting anything during it and has increased chance to cause animation and combat bug that could results in confusion, canceled heavy attack (no resources), delayed release (dps loss) or in most rare and worst case disable you from doing anything. Also remember that during heavy attack casting, using potion or poison injection cancels heavy attack prematurely.

All this leads to higher need to focus on sustain when it comes to bow builds. Now how to achieve it varies by race, class, skills used, combat scenario, support from group and your own perfection of rotation.
To achieve required sustain while keeping usage of heavy attacks at minimum (lets say maximum 1 per rotation in dummy parse) there are several tools. I try to order them based on what they offer and at what cost (usually getting better sustain means losing some damage)

All free resource management tools available. Those are class specific skills and CP. They all can offer various amount of stamina/sec.
Vampire passive. Being vampire has no damage loss, but can affect your survivability in negative manner. Nearly always worth it. Gives you 25-50 stamina/sec (depends on amount of regen)
Race change to Redguard. The damage difference between khajiit an redguard is minimal, but redguard passive Adrenaline Rush, activated by your poison and disease enchant (on your infused frontbar bow) is usually 100 stamina/sec. Very worth it.
Dubious Camoran Throne Drink. One of the most significant sustain tools, but at big price. Will cost you some stamina (damage loss) and health, which you will need to get from other sources (usually trading more stamina to get the health -> another damage loss). Depending on the regen buffs, this is around 250-315 stamina/sec.
Stormfist Monster set. Big advantage of this set is how it synergies with bow playstyle. This set will proc from any damage and any range, doing AoE damage. While giving you regen on the 1st bonus. Obviously this means less damage than from other monster sets (like velidreth). Depending on buffs, this can be 100-129 stamina/sec.
Vicious serpent set (5th bonus). Best sustain set in the game, that still gives enough damage to be considered worth the use. This set would be must have choice, but unfortunately having this means we are losing any damage gained from monster set, since we cant use 2x 5 piece and monster like DW builds do. Offers great amount of sustain, in some situations even more than necessary.
Drop Acid Spray. This skill, while great, costs a lot. So, while still always use it in AoE fights, you can drop it in single target from your rotation if you are struggling. Stamina gained (saved) very much depends on what you cast instead. On warden if you cast cutting dive instead, you will save around 100stamina/sec.
Stamina Cost Reduction Glyph or Stamina Regen Glyph. The last and worst way to get more sustain. In controlled fights where you just perform your rotation, cost reductions outputs better, but in fights where you do other stuff and in between fights, regen is much more valuable. The price is steep however. You will sacrifice 179 weapon damage for 169 regen (compare this trade to above stormfist vs velidreth, where you trade 129 damage for 129 regen). Always use at maximum 1 cost reduction glyph, but you can use whatever amount of regen glyphs you need. The cost reduction glyph will be usually worth (less than the value) in best situations 189 stamina/sec while the regen depending on buffs 135-165 stamina/sec all the time.

For reasons why wood elf was not choice here, see below on races. In short, redguard gives both more damage and sustain. And overall you lose unreasonable amount of damage on wood elf for very little sustain gain.

Best choice: Redguard Vampire with Stormfist and Dubious Drink

Regarding Racial choice

It is the same tale about race choice like with any other stamina builds. With just small differences. I personally believe, given lesser stamina pool (because of dubious drink) and crit (because of bow), khajiit performs the best of all races. But, and this is important, redguard offers much better sustain for almost no damage loss. Which makes redguard (as in any meta build) the best choice possible. It is because of Adrenaline rush, which we proc with poison/disease enchantment.

Now, there are 2 worse, but still arguably viable races. Bosmer and Imperial. Wood elves give us stamina regen, but very very low amount. Usually half of what redguard gives, while also having 4% less Max stamina). Imperial on the other hand, give us much more damage through his 10% max stam (same as redguard) while boosting our health (so you will have to sacrifice less stamina to get missing health from dubious), but offers no sustain, which can be problematic (and ultimately not worth it, if you have to start using regen glyphs for example).

Best choice: Redguard

Regarding weapon setup

Maelstrom bow is must for the best possible DPS. Master Bow helps noticeably too. Asylum bow is weak and the small DPS gain is rarely worth the sustain strain. Probably good to point out here, obviously use Maelstrom bow on same bar as Endless Hail, Master Bow on bar with poison injection and Asylum bow on bar with acid spray.

You will nearly always want to have Infused train on your front bar bow. It is both important for DPS and for redguard passive. Given the strength of Poison DoT, prefer Poison enchantment over Disease. If you don't use redguard and want to improve your AoE DPS at minimal loss in single target, you can use weapon enchantment too.

Backbar offers more choices. The best one is using Nirnhoned trait with double damage poisons (the craftable ones). Without poisons, use weapon glyph enchantment unless you have it on front bar. If you chose to use weapon damage enchantment on front bar, then you will want to have infused trait here too with either poison or disease enchantment. Remember this setup is worse than the best, but still very much close. Infused will also do nothing and will therefore be useless with crafted poisons.
Other viable choices are also Precise (in any situation) or Sharpened (when you lack penetration because you don't have best set, enough CP or good trial group).

Best choice: Infused Master/Maelstrom Bow with Poison enchantment on front bar. Nirnhoned Master/Maelstrom Bow with crafted double DoT poisons on back bar.

Regarding skills

Snipe is (unfortunately) the main spammable on bow builds. Warden is the only class that can use different skill (Cutting Dive). For all other classes you have choice of two morphs. Stam Sorc should always pick Focused Aim. Generally Focused Aim will always be better in situations without any other source of Minor Fracture and Lethal Arrow in rest. Pick what you prefer and what your usual group composition is.

Acid Spray, this skill will always be damage gain if you use it once per rotation and can sustain it. Always use it in AoE fights, but don't spam it and let at least half the DoT pass before using it again. In single target fights, it is still very good skill, but you can easily reach point where sustaining it costs you more DPS than you get. So always analyze your issues and experiment with not using it.

Lightweight trap. Good, but also expensive skill. For reasons known only to developers, this skill is significantly worse than the melee morph. So if you want, you can use that one. Lightweight will grant you only 6s of Minor Force (the reason we use this skill), but do not reapply it more than once in classic 10-12s rotation. If you struggle with casting it (it can get glitchy) or with resources, experient (like with Acid Spray) not using it and compare DPS results.

Other required skills should be self descriptive. Always use Poison Injection, Endless Hail, (Razor) Caltrops. There is no reason to skip them or replace them with anything else. Skills not mentioned here (or above in the list) are not mentioned for good reasons (=being bad), but feel free to ask anyway.

Regarding Warden

Recommended Gear: 5 TFS, 3 VO (Minor Slayer), Stormfist

With cutting dive as spammable, bow build on warden is easier to use and in combat scenario with many repositioning or blocking/dodging can even output better than Snipe with selfsnare and cast time. Avoid using snipe as spammable even if it offers most DPS on dummy.
You can try to use sub. assault every 3 seconds, but with heavy attacks it can be hard or even impossible. Always try to end front bar rotation with it and use weapon swap as animation cancel - this will also increase its damage, because trait on backbar bow will affect it.
Bear should always be used as ultimate, because it offers very large DPS increase. Unfortunately this class is currently very bad in PVE so all bear does is make your DPS at least close to what other bow builds can do. Lotus skill offers good self heal and given your distance from melee DDs (and possibly AoE damage) can be great sustain tool (healing allies -not you- on warden gives resources).
In situations that call for better survivability, Ice Fortress with armor buff and Minor Protection can be very helpful. Same goes for Shimmering shield (very handy in VMA)

Example of rotation: Endless Hail -> LA -> Trap -> LA -> Caltrops -> (LA -> Lotus if used -> LA -> Netch - if running out) -> Bar Swap -> Poison Injection -> LA -> Sub. Assault -> HA -> Acid Spray -> LA -> Cutting Dive -> LA - > (Cutting Dive -> LA untill last second before bar swap) -> Sub. Assault > Bar Swap
Use bear ulti when it is ready.

Regarding Nightblade

Recommended Gear: 5 TFS, 5 VO

The possibly best bow class when it comes to damage. Has the best sustain and can self DPS 6M dummy without ever using heavy attacks with just class skills, Dubious and Vicious Serpent (real combat may or may not have force you to sometimes heavy attack). If you want, you can slot Killer's Blade and move to melee range on execution phase. It is good DPS gain, and it is just for short time to make sense even on ranged build.

Example rotation: Pre-fight: Leeching Strikes, Relentless Focus
Endless Hail -> LA -> Trap -> LA -> Caltrops -> (LA -> Ballista if ready) -> Bar Swap -> Poison Injection -> LA -> (random rotation, where you recast leeching if needed, cast Relentless proc and use Snipe, all time light attacking in between) -> LA -> Relentless Focus (recast) -> Bar Swap

Regarding Sorcerer

Recommended Gear: 5 TFS, 3 VO (Minor Slayer), Stormfist

Second best bow class. Can be played from any range, because difference between long - mid range DPS and mid - close range DPS WITH Hurricane is minimal. It is better to move slightly closer so majority of hurricane hits targets than to stand somewhere in middle. Acid spray can be used for even better AoE damage output, but avoid it with Automaton set. Using Surge and Hurricane can also greatly benefit your survivability. Always have Boundless Armaments on both bars, while the DPS gain is good in itself, the 20% regen is godly.
Sporadic use of dark deal can also be beneficial. You will be losing DPS (on average probably 800 dps) by using it over heavy attack, but it wont slow you down and will take just half the time. If fight contains a lot of moving, using dark deal instead of heavy attacks can even be DPS gain than constantly cast and cancel heavy attacks (because of need to move out of AoE)

Example of Rotation: Endless Hail -> LA -> Trap -> LA -> Caltrops -> (LA -> Ballista if ready) -> Bar Swap -> Poison Injection -> LA -> Snipe -> HA/LA -> repeat till Bar Swap
Recast Hurricane when needed.

Regarding Templar

Awkward class to use. First you need some Aedric Spear ability on the bar to get the crit bonus, but you don't want to use any really. Jabs can offer some trash fight capability, but we don't really need it. Spear shards can benefit group, if you don't have different templar doing it. Maybe Sun Shield can be sometimes used for protection against hard hits. Javelin for CC. Crescent Sweep could potentially be the best one, replacing Dawn Breaker. But if you have empty skill slot on front bar, there is no need.
Rotation is similar to Sorcerer and cast Power of the Light whenever you can.

Regarding DK

Don't use Noxious Breath if there is another source of Major Fracture. Don't use Venomous Claw unless you fight close to the target and don't mess up rotation by walking forward to cast it and back. Usually don't use Molten Armaments, you won't be heavy attacking often enough, but group without any DK can benefit from your passive giving everyone Minor Brutality on cast. Use bow ulti mostly, but any of these standards can be used too, but you need to weigh in if it is worth it to cast standard and not stand in it (for bonus damage from one morph) or if you want to stand in it. Flames of Oblivion is worth use if you stand in range (~15m).
Your Rotation will (again) be as on Sorc. Preferably have Flames of Oblivion on frontbar so you can utilize them longer. If they are on back bar you will either recast them every rotation (wasting 5sec) or every 2nd rotation (not getting damage for 5sec)

Regarding health

Because it is nearly not an option to skip Dubious Camoran Throne drink, you will generally lack health necessary for some content. The target is usually 18k health when playing hard content or being uncomfortable with this playstyle or mechanics. So you can have lower if situation allows it.
Common ways to achieve that is by using 1 heavy armor piece. Either from crafted set (like Hunding or Mother Gaze), usually chest piece, or by having one part of monster set in heavy. If that is not an option (two dropped 5pc sets and master bow) you will have adjust attribute points for health (usually by 5-15)

Regarding range

At some parts before I already briefly mentioned overall effect of long shots passive on DPS. And in short, it has noticeable, but small effect. Minimum range needed for full 12% bonus is 25m, which will almost never be worth it. First you want to be in area of effect of Combat Prayer to get Minor Berserk (not needed on NB). Second you want to be in are of effect of your healer to gain any buffs offered. So generally you will always be pretty close to enemy (10-20m), in front of the healer, usually in the same pack as other magicka casters. In some combat situations stacking on top of each other and/or going to melee range is even required. Then another important bit is the damage from long shot is low anyway. It increases just your bow skill output (usually less than 50% of your damage) and is additive with all other sources of bonus damage (hawk eye, berserks, CP, warden passives, ...) so usually it will improve the DPS of your bow skills by 3-8%. So half that if bow skills are half of your DPS. And that is usually less even less on warden. So in combat situation, prefer firstly position that can use anything healer offers without making him do stuff he would not have to do without you. Then adjust to avoid as much boss aoe as possible and then to gain as much range as possible.

Regarding overall survivability and true reason why not do veteran trials

There is simple difference between ranged magicka DD and stamina melee DD. Melee DD gets Blade Cloak with 25% AoE damage reduction. Ranged magicka gets range and shields. Bow gets only range, making your survivability big issue in fights where you can't simply outrange AoE damage. There are tools that increases your chances to survive and those commonly are Vigor, Surge (on sorc), Major Ward and Major Resolve buffs. Uncommonly you can use shields with health scaling (like Bone Shield), Warden Shimmer Shield (anti projectile shield) or sources of damage reduction (like Minor Protection on Warden's Ice Fortress). These uncommon sources are often not worth it, offering very small increase in survivability, costing resources and your DPS and giving your teammates just another reason to kick you from group. So golden rule is avoid content you can survive without these.

Closing notes I will dedicate to ZoS
Bow really really need significant changes to how heavy attacks work (or overall how much they are needed in current meta). It also needs proper spammable that is accessible to every class and is not weak like Cutting Dive. Overall DPS coming from non bow skill is lower than from other builds, because of low weapon damage on bow (so even less gained from agility passive, fighters guild passives and brutality buff) and because bow passives do not in any way increase them, except for Accuracy which for some reasons gives as much crit as just 1 dagger.
Another thing is very low survivability of medium armor in PVP and PVE. In PVE mitigated by Blade Cloak AoE reduction inaccessible without DW weapons.
Design of two handed weapons has still negative impact on DPS. Firstly by offering one less set piece (mitigated by using unique bows), then by not having better enchantments or meta traits (nirn and infused giving same value to bow that to 1 sword).
Presence of melee limited buffs is not helpful either. Notably Redguard Adrenaline Rush passive. Related to that is the overall lack of clear bow race choice. Each of 3 top racial choices (khajiit, redguard, bosmer) waste one passive on buff not useful for ranged DPS and no race choice actually offers obvious damage buffs to bow (other than obviously presence of max stamina and crit). For example race like Altmer offers both maximum stat bonus and regen like redguard does, but instead of range/skill choice limited third passive, it has clear damage bonus to everything potential DD Altmer will do.

What stamina ranged DD absolutely needs to be effective

Damage - bow has less weapon damage than other stam builds, less of main resource than magicka builds, less crit than stam builds and less penetration than magicka builds. It heavily stacks damage done % (decrease of efficiency) and that only towards bow abilities. Either current damage done passives (longshot and hawkeye) need to affect every ability, or other parts of overall damage (wd+stam; crit; pen) needs to be increased.
Survivability - bow lack of weapon damage makes own heals less powerful (lesser issue in PVE) it also lacks any defensive ability. Magicka builds have shield, 2H builds have (sort of) shield and DW builds have AoE damage reduction. It would be to great benefit of all (stam builds) in both modes, if AoE damage reduction was present outside of weapon tree (medium armor, Fighters guild, undaunted, ...). If that is not welcomed, then the class that was supposed to be ranged DD (warden) should have its own access to something like that.
Sustain - heavy attacks arent balanced, enough said. DW heavy attacks are fast, do not slow down player. 2H heavy attacks proc beneficial passives. Lightning heavy attacks have splash. Resto heavy attacks offer great sustain. I guess fire/ice are bad too, but most magicka builds (in pve or pvp) either have lightning or resto with them. Bow heavy attacks go against everything by slowing player and making him vulnerable and potentially even losing hawk eye stack.
Race - ALL stamina races for DD, except the worst one (Nord) have 1 whole passive out of 3 not usable in PVE DPS
Skills - lack of spammable on anything but warden forcing classes to use selfsnaring cast time ability (+ for some reason DW has better ranged spammable in dagger); much weaker lightweight trap (with short duration)

My own 6M parses on PTS. Affected by my own imperfection and high PTS ping. Useful for comparison between positions and skill usage. Obviously all subjected to RNG or potential inflation from some buffs and debuffs. All done to maximize stamina used. Unless specified otherwise (in description), always Khajiit with 5TFS, 5VO, Infused Poison Frontbar, Nirn WD Backbar. Always selfbuffed
(NB - need to self cast Major Fracture every 3rd rotation; Warden - MF part of rotation; Sorc - No MF available ; DK - need to self cast MK every rotation; Templar - No MF available)
Nightblade Album Link
Warden Album Link

Build links:
Warden Build

Insightful links:
Alcast's Stamina Warden Bow Build “Racer”
Gilliamtherogue on Asylum Bow (video)
Masel92's Bow/bow VMA run (video; outdated)

Also, sorry for very long text. Bet this would be much better in video form.

Changelog

2018/01/04 - Rewrote skills and warden section.
2017/12/29 - Added information about Acid Spray (negative) value regarding stamina sustain
2017/12/24 - Rewrote Champion points setup, Stamina sustain, Racial choice and Weapon setup parts
2017/11/24 - Reworded weapon/trait part slightly
2017/11/23 - Added Dark Deal as viable skill choice on Sorc
2017/11/22 - Marked Imperial as good race choice. Reworded race/class choice to define better and worse options (than from best to worst)
2017/11/21 - Changed Warden Rotation. Added Warden parses. Added recommended gear to Warden, NB and Sorc

I went through several different builds in the video, pretty much seeing what I like best.

I think you get a good view of how Zaan works in PvP.

BTW the preferred build has been:

x5 elf bane (jewelry, front bar ice staff)
x2 Zaan
x5 Transmutation resto back bar

Hrm...

I'll post my opinion:

When I first saw Zaan I thought an up close melee ish (tanky) build would be best. Let ya keep up close and deal just enough damage to kill with Zaan.

I did not like how this played out, it allowed a lot of players of counter Zaan or recover afterwards (in fact you can see it in some of the clips)

I much preferred a more offensive build that just used Zaan as constant pressure, I like the idea of a sorcerer because of Wrath, when Zaan gets opponents down, wrath finishes them. It's also nice to have Curse proc during Zaan (and frag)

Obviously NBs and DKs can really utilize Zaan with their natural high damage and built in Roots.

I elected to use frost staff for reach over encase. I found it much easier to use and damage is always welcome (I suppose those with Master staffs could have a lot of fun!)

The very high mobility of sorc makes keeping Zaan in range easy. And even if they break Zaan that doesn't mean you can't just wait for the next.

Detect pots are your best friend

There's also the huge advantage of procin Zaan when you're on the backbar, you're dealing massive damage and can easily barswap into offense.

What other set kills when you're hard CC'ed?

The biggest counter is using Zaan, because you can't tell it's not your Zaan you end up eating quite a few ticks before you realize wtf is going on

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